Dale -

I am honestly disappointed. You are supposed to convert them, not continue the horrible. Carcassonne and Wits and Wagers should have been the starting point. Bohnanza is easy and fun… why allow yourself the possibility of being stuck at a Monopoly board for 3 hours.

I know, I know… it’s about the people… but can’t you have fun while you are playing games with the people?

As a doctor, would you prescribe sub-standard medication to fill the souls of gamers?

I think you need another appointment with the gaming psychiatrist.

I kind of agree with William. I just went through a similar experience. My parents just moved into a new house large enough for all the kids/grandkids to come at once. I decided to provide some games. As I don’t tend to keep games around I don’t want, I had to place an order. I thought a long time about how to bootstrap the joint. Without going into justifications, it was: Power Grid, 1960, Hollywood Blockbuster, Caylus Magna Carta, Acquire. Other than me there are no “gamers”, but I’d rather play something I actually like than just “something” for the sake of it. “If you build it they will come” and all that.

You could at least sneak in a few gateway games.  Blokus, Hare and Tortoise, maybe Settlers and Ticket to Ride?

How many people are nostalgoc about games they grew up playing?  How many grew up playing it because it was what was around?  I played the classic games, sure, but I also played things like Mastermind and 221B Baker street, because they were there, and as a kid, you don’t care what style the game is; if it is there you’ll pick it up and play.

William/Curt/Chad,

All good points that you make above.  I’m a little disappointed as well—but this list simply reflects the reality of what I packed up for them… (I’ll likely post my fantasy list next week—if money were not an object and if there were no expectations to meet)

To put it into a bit more perspective, let me tell you a bit more about the house.  It’s owned by my inlaws, and no one else in the family is a Eurogamer.  I’ve been part of this family for 17 years now, and I haven’t converted one yet.  In fact, I don’t even evangelize any more.  I’ve talked about this in a previous article—likely last summer—but in short, I don’t really try to convert people to gaming.  I’d rather they come to me if they’re interested.  And trust me, 17 years is long enough time for someone to express interest.  As none has developed in that time, I don’t really prepare for the emergence of a gamer amongst the inlaws anymore.

While my wife and kids are up there maybe 6 weeks in the summer, I spend about three to seven days total up there.  So, in the end, I’ve been asked to bring games up to a house that doesn’t have gamers in it and that doesn’t usually have me in it to teach the games.

So—the games I brought up are games that are meant for the target audience - my inlaws and their guests.  That’s why it’s mostly American classics and party games.  The list is composed of games that people likely know the rules to and are familiar/comfortable with.  The goal of the list (from my mother-in-law who requested it) was not to convert folks to Euro gaming but to provide games that they and their guests could enjoy.

Additionally, as I’m never up there, it had to be games that I was willing to give up for free from my collection.  There is no chance in hell that my only copy of TTR was going to go up there. 

Anyways, in the two weekends that I go up there, I’ll often have a crate of games in my car just in case.  But only once in the past 5 years has that crate ever come out of the car… And that’s because another gamer family from Grand Rapids came down to visit.

Also, my kids have their own games that they bring up (and then bring back).  The last time they went up, this bunch included:  Blokus, Rumis, Holper Stolper, Ghost Chase, Loopin’ Louie, Viva Topo, Monte Rolla and Mause Rallye.  Yes, most of these are kids games, but they’re still good examples of the Euro games.

So, Curt, I respectfully ask you—how often do you think your game list was played?  I’d estimate taht your game order cost at least $100.  If you’re not up there, do you really think that people not into our hobby are going to pick up those games and play them?  IMHO, I think not.  Though, at least in your situation, it sounds like you may be at your parents house more often than I’m at the lakehouse.  Additionally, your family is likely more gaming oriented than my inlaws.  A big determining factor of this list was choosing games that didn’t cost me any money - i.e. those games that i already had duplicates of OR those games that I didn’t want to keep.

William, say you were the family’s movie guy.  But you didn’t like standard American movies, you really had a thing for Bollywood musicals.  Your family doesn’t quite understand the difference, and as far as they’re concerned, you’re the “movie” guy.  If they ask you to stock the lakehouse with movies for everyone’s enjoyment, do you fill the DVD shelf with only Bollywood movies?  I wouldn’t.  I would pick one or two to give an example of my love, and then stick to the movies such as Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Animal House, Blues Brothers, etc.  I’d pick movies that people were familiar with that they could enjoy.  I’d try to provide different types so that anyone who was at the lakehouse could find something that they like. 

Chad, that’s an interesting chicken and egg question you raise.  In my experience, people that aren’t alraedy into Euro games DO NOT pick up Euro games and start to play them.  It takes one of us being there, being excited about the game, being patient enough to teach the game to cause others to sit down and join in.  And again, I’m only up there one or two weekends a year.  It would be a shame to bring stuff up that would never get used in the other 8 months of the year that it’s inhabited.

Still, your points are well taken, and I will certainly have my wife monitor which games are played.  I suspect that over the years more Euro games will make it into the closet as at least I’m managing to convert my own kids to gaming… And they’ll at least want to have their own permanent stash up there.  Check back in a few years and I’ll tell you what’s up there!

Dale

Answers from my side:

> ...how often do you think your game list was played? I’d estimate taht your game order cost at least $100.

A little over $125. Savvy readers will be quick to know why.

Unfortunately, I was only able to be there for 3 days this year. And I won’t be back until about same time next year. We played each of the games about 1-3 times (with Hollywood Blockbuster being the only game to get more than that).

> If you’re not up there, do you really think that people not into our hobby are going to pick up those games and play them?

Nope. But then that wasn’t a goal of mine. If that was a goal of yours, then that’s an understandable difference.

> Though, at least in your situation, it sounds like you may be at your parents house more often than I’m at the lakehouse.

Unless you’re logging less than 3 days there this year, I think I have you beat on who’s there less.

> Additionally, your family is likely more gaming oriented than my inlaws.

Maybe. Although the ONLY games they’ve played outside the classics are games I’ve introduced. I bring ‘em, I say “hey let’s play”, and we play. If they’re more gaming oriented, it’s because I’ve oriented them so.

> A big determining factor of this list was choosing games that didn’t cost me any money

That’s another understandable difference I guess, if that’s a limiting factor. For me, I’m coming from halfway around the world, so tacking on a game order to the cost of the trip is noise.

definitely should get a copy of blokus for them..or have them pick it up at Target or somewhere else.  Its such a great simple strategy game that even had my mother (who is the anti-savvy gamer) feeling that she was a gamer....and its easy enough to play with kids as well. I swear she was getting competitive by the game’s end!

I am glad to see you sent along Carcassonne. Hopefully just the basic or near close to it for their sakes.

I do agree that you can’t throw a whole bunch of euro games on everyone at once...but once you get one of those gateway games (even ticket to ride is a great one...I don’t agree that settlers is simple enough to be an effective gateway like most do) out on the table and its a hit, they are all yours!  tried and true!

Curt, I think you’re just luckier that your family has taken to gaming more than mine has…

Unfortunately for me, I’ve tried on multiple occasions, and it’s never worked out for me—so with this group, I just don’t try anymore.

And, I suppose that even making it for three days a year is a big deal when you’re coming from China.  (Do you swing by to see them on the way to the Gathering?)

Dale

> And, I suppose that even making it for three days a year is a big deal when you’re coming from China.  (Do you swing by to see them on the way to the Gathering?)

No. I’m a worthless excuse of a son.

Curt, nonsense.

Now if your parents were Chinese (like mine)—I might agree with you.  But the filial obligation to visit your parents at every opportunity is really only something that us Chinese kids are saddled with!

Dale

Dale, I think you did the right thing.  As a co-worker of mine used to say, you can’t teach the pig to sing.  It accomplishes nothing and only serves to annoy the pig.

And your point about rules is a good one.  I have a niece who loves to play eurogames with me.  However, when Uncle Larry isn’t there to teach her the rules, the games don’t get played.  So it’s better to provide what might be sub-standard games that will get played rather than better ones that will gather dust.

Dale -

I can now see what you are up against. I have had mixed results as well when it comes to the introduction of games.

I think the key is to start with the simplest gateways possible and go from there… but some never take hold.

I’ve converted quite a few in my girlfriend’s family, but I think I am going to notch that one up to their German heritage!

>Is the Pope Catholic?

I have to check this one out some day, just to see what I retained from Sister Victor’s class.

Peter,

Sister Victor?

I had a maybe one or two nuns with male names as well, but that seems a bit butch…

Dale

Dale,

I certainly understand your plight, and you have my sympathies. Gaming with in-laws can be a tricky thing.

In a way, I was set up - I grew up in a gaming family. Visits to my step-father’s family always involved cards, and, at an early age, I was invited to participate. In visits to my mother’s family, we would frequently play Clue and some other “typical” board games. So, I had gaming ingrained in me from an early age. By the time I was ten, I was already playing the 3M games, Mah Jongg. The Avalon Hill and SPI wargames soon joined them. I expected other families to be like mine.

So, on my first visit to my new fiance’s parents, I was delighted to see a couple of 3M games in their den. Only later did I realize that they hadn’t been played since the 1970s. While my wife’s sister continued to play games after childhood, the rest the family had not. After playing enough games (mainly to entertain my nephew) that I had to grit my teeth at, I was able to introduce Diamant (which was mostly a success), Ticket to Ride (pretty successful) and Wits and Wagers (a hit with almost everyone, including one self-admitted “game hater"). My sister-in-law has been my ally in introducing these new games. She’s always interested to see what new game I’m bringing each year. While I always bring a slew of games on visits, I’m lucky to get in more than a couple of games on a week-long trip. Without the help from my sister-in-law, I suspect I would still be trying to get in the first game, much less be thinking about new titles to try (I’m thinking that Say Anything will be a hit, but I may also try Zooloretto next time).

Under the limitations you are operating under, I think you did well. It’s hard to get people to learn new games if you’re not there to teach the rules…

ps: I think I may have to track a copy of “Is the Pope Catholic?” It sounds like it might be fun for kids at the Catholic Student Center…

David, Is the Pope Catholic is interesting but only to a degree.  I don’t know how applicable it will be to the kids except as a historical oddity—sort of: “Look at what the Church used to be like before Vatican 2!”.

I just looked at the game, and here is the first few random questions:

“What are the three types of Baptism?”

“What are the 6 chief ceremonies used in solemn Baptism?”

“What are the 5 things that you must do in order to worthily receive the Sacrament of Penance?”

Good luck with those!
Dale

Dale,

Having had a fair bit of experience with non-gamer gaming, I would respectfully add one more game to the list, if you have a spare copy:  Apples to Apples.  Laughter is guaranteed (and gaming enjoyment assured) the first time someone tries to match “Pond Scum” to any adjective.

(Yeah, I know we’re all bored of the darn thing, but remember the first time you played it?)

Oh, and Mike Petty’s game What’s It To Ya? would probably be good, too.

Derek

P.S. If Apples to Apples works, and Wits & Wagers works, Say Anything will be a sure hit.

Derek, both are good ideas.

I only have one copy of Apples to Apples, and though we don’t play it much here (if at all), I couldn’t part with it.

Say Anything would also be a good choice - but I don’t have a copy of it yet!  I meant to pick up a copy for review at Origins, and it just never came to be.

Dale

Like Dale, I am often considered an expert on games (so they are right with Dale. :) and am asked for suggestions. 

If you get on my gift list, you’re probably gojng to get a game. My optimism hasn’t been quite as crushed as Dale’s because my in-laws haven’t proved quite as resistant as his.  Two of my sisters-in-law actually request some games to bring, one of them plays her copy of Ticket to Ride (Xmas gift) when I am not around.

But when I am in a situation like Dale describes (to supply games for a group), I hesitate to use it as an opportunity to purge my collection of games that I don’t like.  The idealistic side of me says I don’t want people new to gaming to try a game, find it bad and give up on games in general.

I suspect that I am overestimating my influence, so I envy Dale’s pragmatism.  Anybody want a copy of Cadoo?

"What house could be without the classic prototypical American boardgame?”

Happy.

Sister Victor- The classic old time Catholic Nun. Maybe 5 feet tall, less than 100 lbs. But God was on her side, and you didn’t dare dp wrong in her class. But you learned your Math and Religion and she wasn’t afraid to try to get you to think.

And Dale’s right those questions are brutal. Once upon a time I think I would have gotten two right. But that was 30+ years ago.

I forgot about Qwirkle! It was a bit hit last Christmas. Also, a fun new trend was seeing relatives giving each other games as gifts (Blokus was one of these from last year).

Payday… mmm-good memories.  We used to play it all the time, and then once we had too much money, we’d multiply all dollar values by 10 and just keep playing… (So everything cost and paid out 10X as much...)

I just hooked all my nephews (and a niece) into Heroscape last Christmas.  I had brought along a spare copy of the basic game (I think I got a copy for $20 or less on Amazon on a 2for1 sale).  And broke it out during the younger ones’ naptimes.

Now they’re all fairly decent fans, so I expect to get in a game or two of Heroscape when I make it back up there in two weeks.  (They should be exicted as I’ve scored a spare copy of the _other_ basic (master) set so now they have even more parts to play with...)

Scott - for clarification purposes, Hungry Hungry Hippos was the only game on the list that was sent up to the lakehouse solely to rid my own house of it.  All of the other games are either duplicates or games that I thought would fit the need up there.

Dale
-- who therefore still has copies of all sorts of crappy games in his basement

No Careers??

>Scott - for clarification purposes, Hungry
>Hungry Hippos was the only game on the list
>that was sent up to the lakehouse solely to rid
>my own house of it.  All of the other games are
>either duplicates or games that I thought would
>fit the need up there. 
>
>Dale

Still it sounds more like a list of ‘games Dale is willing to part with’ then a list of ‘the ideal games to stock in a non-gamer family cottage’.

Eric - again, remember that this list was meant to be ideal for my mother-in-law who requested it, and not ideal for a veteran Eurogamer.  I will not deny that it’s not a group of games that I want to play often; but I think that overall it will generate more play than the list I will post next week (which is what I would bring up if it were my place)

Dale

Dale,

It was your comment that you wouldn’t part with your only copy of Ticket to Ride, that most leads me to believe that ‘what games Dale is willing to part with’ is an important part of the selection process. I wasn’t looking for ‘games to stock a gamers cottage’, I was hoping for ‘ideal games to stock a non-gamers family cottage’. There is nothing wrong with the games you have on the list and I wouldn’t expect games like Powergrid or Caylus. I would expect more games like Ticket to Ride (AKA the Train game) and Bohnanza (AKA the Bean game).

I don’t introduce games like TTR to casual gamers in hopes of converting them into hardcore gamers(I know they are called gateway games, but it seldom happens). I introduce them because I believe that casual gamers will like to play TTR as much if not more then the mass market games they are already playing. I have introduced TTR to over a dozen casual gamers, all have liked it (something that can’t be said for all the games I have tried), some have played it without me, but none have been comverted into hardcore gamers.

Eric, aha- makes more sense… My experience with gateway games is about the same as yours - which is why I generally wait until someone approaches me about TGOO before launching into Proselytizing Mode

So, I’ll look forward to your comments on my next list which should be my “ideal games to stock a non-gamers family cottage” list.

Dale

Dale,

I totally understand your dilemma.  In fact, this gets at the exact predicament that drove me to start North Star Games in the first place.  So while I can barely fault you on your choice of games, I do fault you for not having two copies of Wits & Wagers.  That was short sighted and detrimental to our industry! 

Appalled,
Dominic

Dom,

Well, i was going to pick up a “review copy” at Origins, but you guys were too busy showing off the game to actual customers for me to try my con job on you or Satish…

That being said… I still don’t have any copies of Say Anything…

Dale

Ah, I see, Dale, and stand corected. 
(and I fully understand the HHH departure!)

But now I am back to keeping my crappy games because I don’t want to give them to someone and turn them off to games!