Okay, a bunch of points.

1. Certainly piling this much stuff into one game box is unconventional, but I think it was a brilliant decision.  This is a game designed for gamers and, notwithstanding the Family variant, was always going to be marketed to gamers.  So what is the selling point?  I don’t know about anyone else, but the first thing that hit me was, “You mean to tell me there are 300 cards and I only see 14 of them at a time?!?” That’s a promise of unheard of replayability, even before we know what’s under the hood.  Instant grabber for me, and I suspect for many others.

2. There is no way on God’s green earth that this was ever going to get an SdJ nomination (although a recommendation is certainly a strong possibility).  Even the family game is probably more involved and harder than Pillars and the Jury thought that was too complex to nominate.  For a small indie like Lookout, appealing to gamers is their best bet.  Now, given how well the game did in the Fairplay poll, I’m sure they’ve sold quite a few copies to families, but I don’t think they could have forseen that.

3. I agree that the bundled approach made finding an English publisher that much harder (kudos to Zev and Hanno for finding a way to accomplish this).  But I don’t think that was a major goal prior to Essen, as Lookout has never worked that way in the past.  Maybe they should have sensed they had something special here and shot higher, but that’s a lot easier to say when it isn’t your money.  Besides, if they had just gone with the Basic cards, maybe the game wouldn’t have attracted as much attention and the English edition wouldn’t have even been an issue.  We’ll never know, but it seems to have worked out all right for all concerned.

4. I also agree that the game isn’t particularly innovative.  Mechanically, the only unusual touches are the accumulating resource boxes and the fact that the number of player actions can increase so dramatically over the course of a game.  Neither is likely to start a new trend in gaming.  Your four minor points are all valid and each is of some interest.  But this is a case where the details of the design are its strength, rather than innovative mechanics.  And I think Rosenberg has done a great job of balancing the game, while giving the players interesting choices throughout.  And the huge number of cards, with very little duplication, is amazingly impressive.

5. The game is set in the 17th century, not the 13th, but your point is still taken--lots of bad things were still around.  But somewhat peversely, while I love the strong theme, I’m VERY glad it isn’t reminiscent of the 17th century.  What it DOES feel like is *frontier* farming, in any setting of time and place.  In my opinion, this greatly increases its appeal world-wide.  It can remind an American of the 19th century pioneer farmers, Australians can think of the early settlers in the Outback--just about every culture must have some historical parallel they can fit this into.  I can’t ever see a game like this drawing heavily upon history to tell its story, but in this case, I think the lack of specifics worked for the better.

6. I haven’t seen any shortage of Agricola palaver since the infamous “prank”.  Maybe some people got tired of the flame wars (again), but there’s still plenty of talk about the game (it’s what we’re doing, isn’t it?).  I agree that the Geek focuses too much on crap like this instead of serving as a useful information resource, but that hasn’t stopped the discussions about the game there and elsewhere.

7. I don’t really see what the problem is with Lookout only supporting Melissa’s translations.  That’s just making sure players are playing the game correctly.  It’s comparable to a publisher saying they’ll only support the rules given in the game and not all the variants different gamers come up with.

8. The only way I can see Lookout being more supportive of English speakers is if they provide replacement decks to the people who bought the German game (or something comparable).  We don’t yet know that they won’t; Hanno has said that these people wouldn’t be forgotten, but no details have been released.  If they don’t choose to go this far, I’ll understand, since it protects Zev’s investment.  But overall, I think they’ve done a great job supporting English speakers.

I guess that’s enough of a response.  Sheesh, I think I just wrote my OWN article!

1-4. Agreed. I adore the choices, and preordered the game JUST because Lookout was doing it. They don’t do normal things. I don’t know it well enough to know if it is a good game.

As a created work, it is quite remarkable.

5. It really isn’t 17th century. The farm tech involved covers a good couple of millennia. Part of me was hoping for something on the order of Botany Bay. Silly me.

7-8. The translation is the weird bit. In the past, the fan translations and paste-ups existed alongside the manufacturer. (Save for the Knizia Rome translation, which conflicted with a licensed commercial translation.) In this case, reformatted versions of the translation are being passed around through the dark alleys of email instead of being made publicly available to examine.

But it does set a bad precedent for those games that are unplayable in English, that will not get publisher support. Geek moderators may not approve the postings, translators may not bother…

I have a made a set of pasteups for my german copy. A *lot* of work has gone into these (maybe, 30 hours so far, and I still have the K-Decks to do). I am not going to upload them to BGG until Zev announces that he has hit his required number of preorders and production has started.

I think the preorder system Zev is using is what is preventing more pasteups and translations from hitting the net in general… No one wants to be responsible for keeping the English version from hitting the shelves.

I’m looking forward to this game, from what I’ve read it has tons of potential.  The biggest reason is the 5 player capability.  It seems like way too many games are coming out for only 4 players.  My group generally has 5 or 6 people, so 4 player games are hard to get out.

I think leaving out bad events is fine.  Leaves them something for an expansion, as they included all the cards for an expansion already.

Sounds like someone needs to create a WallenAgricolaStein variant! :D

Actually, I think it was me rather than Lookout Games who refused to support the other translation ... because the cards quoted on the Geek were wrong :) (Also because they were clearly *based* on my translation and then wronged-up ... ugh!)

The issue as far as I can see is that at the price point for this game, there are people who would rather make their own copy than buy a real copy - and because so much of this game is in the cards, making those paste-ups available enables that. I was very careful to leave information out of my translation tables so that this could not be done.

Agricola is popular.

Agricola will sell out in both languages.

Not everyone will be a fan.

The Geek is just like every other public forum, with the exceptions that it has ten-fold more functionality, and is as active as most other bigger forums, even given the smaller size of our hobby fan base.

Paste-ups are a privilege, not a right. Thanks to Melissa anyone can do their own. I started to make my own before I was able to acquire some that were already made.

I will be getting a copy from Zev for 2 reasons:

- I want the cards without a need for paste-ups or sleeves.

- I want him to keep publishing games, because I love our hobby.

On a final note:

Agricola is original in all the ways that count, the most important of which is the way it puts all the new elements together with familiar ones in a totally new way.

FYI, for the record, I don’t mind paste-ups being uploaded, however, I do think in this case, paste-ups should come from one source otherwise you are going to have a mess as several paste-ups are uploaded and they may not be correct and players will get confused. Didn’t this happen once already as a paste-up with wrongly translated text got up there and confused people?

Zev

Mangled translations have ALWAYS happened. In the “old days” it wasn’t a problem. Someone would eventually work out the problem, update it, and everyone was so appreciative of the fact that THEY didn’t have to do the translation that no one minded so much.

The body of gamers at the time would stop and look back into the original to see if they were playing correctly before trying to tear apart the game. With the current instant gratification thing going on at BGG, that doesn’t seem as if it will happen.

In a lot of ways, I think the failing is more on the BGG side--it has become somewhat publisher-hostile.

And at the same time, the number of people does kind of make it possible to do larger projects. Without BGG, I’m pretty sure there would be no possibility of a full English version of Agricola. Agricola is definitely a game that is worth the trouble. And we may just have to take the bad of BGG with the good.

Hi, Frank:

But it isn’t the old days anymore. We shouldn’t have to wade through bad
paste ups/translations/player aids, etc.

But as I said, overall I don’t mind paste-ups. And honestly, I don’t even think I could stop them even if I didn’t want them. That’s the “new days” for you that’s for sure.

Whether BGG is good or bad, I leave it up to individuals to decide for themselves: as a publisher, it’s an invaluable resource in an industry where we have very few resources.

Zev

Hmmm… I remember playing a game of Agricola during BGG.con in which something very bad happened to me, and it pretty much took me out of the game.  I’m not sure exactly what you mean that no bad things are in the game or where you got this idea!

If you’re going to focus on a few bad apples on BGG, ignore all of the good things about it, then declare it broken, then I guess it’s your prerogative.  However, it’s also my prerogative, when a columnist ignores thousands of useful and helpful articles on the Geek and bases a sweeping generalization on a few threads, to question the writer’s agenda and/or credibility.

Personally, I try to ignore all that crap and focus on the good side of the site.  If you can point out a site that does it as well and as comprehensively, I’m willing to give it a look. 

I personally find it humorous that ever since I entered this hobby, one of the great ongoing discussions has been “how do we get more people into this hobby?” Now that it is happening all I read about (and old-timers seem to be especially bad about this) is how the folks at BGG are nothing more than the trailer trash of the gaming community.

Funny, I don’t think I’ve ever been in the presence of more nice people than I was at BGG.con.

Larry - I agree with your post, but it could never be imagined to be set in Australia.  The boards are green. ;)

Cheers,

Giles.

Excellent column, and excellent responses.

The issue is clouded because Lookout strongly indicated at Essen that there would be no English version until most of the German print run had gone (now seemingly not the case) and that buyers of the German version would be able to get English card translations within two weeks. I am of course very pleased that there will be an English printing, but AT THE MOMENT it makes my German, early adopter, version look a lot like an expensive door stop.

Secondly, the buyers of the game on the above basis now feel a bit left behind as they can neither play without a TON of work, or have to wait and paying again, a lot more money, for Z-Man’s rendition.

Thirdly, those chirpy souls who said we only needed 14 cards (yes, this means you Svellov!) should be banned from gaming for a year. 14 cards?  Not even if you are playing solitaire can you get away with 14.

Fourthly, thanks to Melissa for some bloody impressive translation work.

My hopeful conclusion is that Lookout will honour its customer service promises, but that events and success and mania to play (why so mad???) have probably caught them unawares. Let’s wait and see.

I have now played the game. I am puzzled by the almost unprecedented reception around the hobby, but did like it. I might comment further elesewhere!

On the Geek, I could not agree more. It is both a fantastic resource that I use (yes, use) daily and a complete pain in the bum because of the special brand of idiots that it attracts. They range from deplorable (thanks Frank) to embarrassing, with all shades in between. And, yes, they spoil my enjoyment of the site. I am also not best pleased that a lot of them are British, but not entirely surprised.

Here is my solution. Extreme, perhaps. Let the BGG admins flag any user that shows marked signs of being a tosser. They are hidden from us, and we don’t have to see their inane comments, petty ratings and pathetic explanations. And blog links. Nor do they have any effect on rating averages. They, meanwhile, think they are full blown members, highly regarded by all Geeks, and contributing to our hobby enjoyment. 

Semi-serious on that one.

Frankly, if you think Agricola is a peaceful game, then you probably haven’t played enough of it (nor with the I deck it seems).  As a first impression I thought it was a fairly good article.  However, you have tossed out a lot of generalizations that obviously demonstrated a lack of familiarity with the subject itself.

As for BGG, I think it’s a great place, but I do find the lack of moderating a bit unsettling.  People seem to get away with a lot of stuff that I’d never see unpunished elsewhere.  I imagine the laissez faire attitude in regards to its community has probably contributed to the seemingly downward spiral of the website’s quality.

The Geek is like the Internet as a whole, it’s subject to Sturgeon’s Revelation (90% of everything is crud). Like the Internet the key thing is being able to spot the 10% - and the 10% is worth spotting (for some value of 10%). The first starting point is the longer the thread, the less likely it is to be worth reading (although there are exceptions). The failure point is when the effort of finding what you want/need becomes excessive. I don’t think we’re anywhere there yet.

[Me, I’ve constributed to the 10% and the 90%. I suspect most of us have.]

Jason: My comments on the peacefulness were more from a thematic point of view. The worst thing that happens in terms of theme is that you have to go begging, or someone buys stone from you.

In terms of the mechanics, the action limits do seem kind of brutal, especially the one family expansion action, and the single fence action.

I finally got everything pasted up.

1. I like the game a lot. Reminds me a bit of Caylus, but I think I like this better.

2. The tech cards vary quite a bit in power, which is the only bit which concerns me. I kind of doubt that there are balance issues, but the card cycle variant does seem appealing.

3. Mik is insane (regarding the paste-ups, anyway). There is just too much careful detail in the card text, as well as cross-referenced names between tech cards and action spaces, and the major advancements, that you kind of need to do the lot.

As to BGG, I wonder if the thumb system is making things worse. The front page seems vastly uninteresting, and anything I’ve been looking for recently is either buried in a thread or sitting in a moderation approval queue for days.

And many of us owe Melissa a favor. I’m pretty sure there wouldn’t be an english Agricola without her effort and enthusiasm for the game.

I haven’t played Agricola yet, so cannot comment on it. I have just taken delivery of the German version and have also pre-ordered an English copy. Yes, the expensive way of doing things, but the only way to get my hands on a copy early while helping to maximise the likelihood of an English edition being published in due course.

Massive thanks to Melissa. I find it hard to believe that all this seems to have been accomplished without her even having her own copy of the game!?

As for BGG ...

It is undeniably a “community” rather than a database. I preferred it three or four years ago, when it was closer in nature to, but already superior to, Luding, but there is no turning back the clock. Yes, it’s a nuisance having to wade thorugh pages of drivel and irrelevant opinion to find what you are looking for, but for me the pluses still outweigh the minuses and it’s still the site I log in to first (sorry Boardgamenews!)

And finally, Mike Siggins wrote about the “special brand of idiots that [BGG] attracts ... not best pleased that a lot of them are British”. He made a similar comment about Brits in Essen this year and seems to be going through one of those phases that a lot of us go through from time to time when witnessing the behaviour of our countrymen on the international scene. I must admit that I haven’t tuned in to the behaviour described, but it’s a shame if this is happening, because it’s hard enough trying to convince some of the US residents on BGG that the site really is international and that contributions emanating from “overseas” are worthwhile without this sort of hurdle.

Frank said: “The front page seems vastly uninteresting, and anything I’ve been looking for recently is either buried in a thread or sitting in a moderation approval queue for days.”

I can’t help you with the stuff sitting in a moderator queue, I can offer you a suggestion for the front page. Use the “Edit Front Page” button in the top right corner of the News box. It is a great little utility for cutting down on things of little interest to me and focusing on what I want to read. Here is what I use:

Recent Games 30

Left Column:
Reviews 20 Recent
Reviews 5 Hot
Sessions 10 Recent
Forums 5 Hot
Forums 5 Recent
Trade Forums 5 Recent
Geeklists 5 Recent

Right Column:
Game Forums 50 Recent
Game Forums 10 Hot
Images 5 Recent
Cartoon 1 Recent

Don’t forget to “Save the Changes”. Obviously I am far more interested in folks talking about the games, the reviews and sessions. I generally read the right column first, then the left depending on time. I generally read the site a couple of times a day, which is why I have the numbers set at the levels I do.

Peace

Tim, it probably is a phase, but still there. Check the 1’s on Agricola. What is “SouthernMan” on about?