Patrick Korner: Interview with Sebastien Pauchon

Sébastien Pauchon started designing games “seriously” only four years ago, but his first published game, Yspahan (Ystari, 2006), is an innovative blend of area majorities, dice rolling and special actions that did more than get nominated for Germany’s prestigious Spiel des Jahres award – it served notice that a talented designer had broken onto the gaming scene.  Sébastien, who hails from Switzerland, is one of a rapidly expanding group of French-speaking designers whose efforts attract more and more attention each year.  In addition to Yspahan, Sébastien has co-designed (along with Bruno Cathala and Malcolm Braff) a pair of more recent titles: Animalia (2007) and Jamaica (planned for release this fall), both promotional products for a Swiss insurance firm and therefore rather hard to procure abroad (although that may be changing – read on…).

Sébastien was kind enough to take some time out of his busy schedule to answer a few questions.

Patrick Korner: When and how did you first get interested in board games?

Sébastien Pauchon: Well, as far as I can remember I’ve always been willing to play any game, which surely isn’t a big surprise. I played a lot of Statego, Monopoly, Parcheesi and Chess as a kid, then Risk, Jass (a popular Swiss card game) and the usual (at least here) party games (Brainstorm, Pictionary, Trivial Pursuit) as a teenager. And, of course, lots of pool too ;-)

I discovered “modern” board games quite late (2001).  While shopping for a weekend in a chalet with some friends, I grabbed a box of Carcassonne in a small mall, purely by chance.  The red Spiel des Jahres logo sure performed its duty well with me: the game would never have been on those shelves in the first place if not for its Prize, and I might never have discovered the existence of the Board game-world/community (!).

PK: Have you ever tried other types of gaming, such as D&D, Magic: The Gathering, Role-playing, etc.?

SP: I have played Magic half a dozen times, and it didn’t do the trick for me.  Don’t get me wrong, I find the idea great, and the meta-game fascinating.  But it just doesn’t work for me.  Or, I should say, it doesn’t work now that I know all these different “German” games are out there.  If there was only Magic, I’m pretty sure I could get addicted to the deck-building process.

D&D and Role-playing I tried once as a teenager and twice as an adult.  It wasn’t very interesting the first time, so I wasn’t sucked into it.  Too bad, because I would have been the perfect age for it.  The other times, we had a lot of fun, but I don’t feel the urge to play more, so that’s about it.

PK: Do you have any favorite games (not your own designs)?  If so, what is it about them that you find engaging?

SP: There are several games I find way above average, but none is really an all-time favorite all alone.  Some can’t even be compared to each other.

The top of the crop would be Puerto Rico, Ricochet Robots, Cities and Knights (Catan), Time’s Up, and the Catan card game.  Then comes a host of excellent games (Goa, Taluva, Euphrat & Tigris, Funkenschlag, Blue Moon City, Unanimo, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, Shadows Over Camelot, Modern Art, Medici, Dschunke, Coloretto, Löwenherz, Roma, Objets Trouvés, and many more…).

Puerto Rico: this one is pretty incredible.  The way you have the take everything, and everyone, into account, the specific timing of each action, the choice of strategy, buildings, the defensive moves, make it a really unique game for me.  We have played it a lot and I’m still in awe after each game we play.  Tension, thinking, second-guessing, adaptation, ah, I just love it.

The only thing that’s poor about the game is the design of the building tiles, which are probably as ugly and plain as the game is good (and that says a lot!).  Luckily, some Swiss freak made a set of neat tiles based on San Juan that can be found on BoardGameGeek.com. ;-)

Ricochet Robots: this one is a comet.  Obviously, not everyone is interested in astronomy, and that’s too bad.  I love the absolute pureness of the design, the fact that it’s totally open: you can play with 2 or with 10 and the set-up is the same.  Also, it’s the only game I have seen so far where the actual pleasure of playing, even for only a couple of turns, is more fun than winning.  We’ve had many games where someone would just play along for a couple of chips and then go back to the BBQ.  And, it’s one of the games where we’ve had the hardest laughs (I can see some of you out there frown, but trust me laugh hard we do!). I know Ricochet Robots is a love/hate game, but this one is amazing with the right players who enjoy this kind of brain hyper-activity.

Time’s Up! : when you’re told the rules, you think “Yeah yeah, I’ve heard that before, do I need to draw as well?”.  And once you start you’re in for a ride!  Nothing more to say: for me, the perfect party game.  And the way you remember some names many months after playing is a very interesting phenomenon, that gives interesting hints on how educational games could work.

Catan is something very special. We have played almost all the versions and scenarios, some several times, and Cities and Knights many, many times.  C&K is by far the very best version in my opinion, when played with four seasoned players. That one is a battle of two to three tense hours indeed.  Very enjoyable.  The cool thing is, when you really know the game inside out, there is always a way to still win against all odds, using your cards and knights skillfully, or with cunning, depending on how you look at it.  All that even when you’ve had a bad start or a weak position to begin with.

What I find special about Catan in general is the fact that when you set it up, there’s this peculiar feeling of “coming home” or slipping into an old pair of slippers.  That’s something I haven’t found in any other game. Maybe because we’ve played it so many times?  I don’t really know, but this feeling combined with it’s extraordinary modularity make it an absolutely perfect game system.

PK: How extensive is your own personal collection?  Do you consider yourself mostly a ‘player’ or a ‘collector’?  Do you own any particularly rare / interesting games that you’re especially proud of?

SP: As of today, I own about 650+ games, but, guess what, I still think I’m more of a player than a collector .  What makes me say that (I say the same thing to my relatives who think I grossly underestimate my sickness) is that I’ve really played over 600 of them, and that I don’t buy a game I’m sure I won’t try out at least once.

Or maybe if it is sold for 1$ in a car-boot sale.  But, see, that has nothing to do with collecting, I’m a designer, I neeeeed those bits ;-).

The rarest games I have on my shelves are Full Metal Planète (but it isn’t even mine) and probably Animalia, and soon Jamaica, since they’re rather hard to find. So nothing fancy.

Since most of the time the only thing you need to buy a specific game is the money to pay for it, I don’t see much pride in owning any particular one.

PK: In the past, most ‘big-name’ games were produced in Germany, and while more and more quality titles are coming from France, Italy and elsewhere, there are still very few Swiss-based publishers.  What effect does this have on board game prices locally?

SP: The prices in Switzerland are rather high compared to shops in Germany or, even worse, to on-line discounters.  They are cheaper here than in France, though…

Now, what does expensive mean for a game?  That’s pretty relative, of course.  Somebody who buys a couple of games per year, or maybe even a game every other year surely doesn’t think board games are that expensive.  Some books are almost the same price and are read in a couple of days, if not hours, and video games sure aren’t that cheap either.  So what’s $50 for a game you might enjoy countless hours with several friends or relatives?  Compared to a night to the movies for instance?

I think people who find board games expensive are the one who buy truckloads every year, be it in Essen or via the web. The quantity makes the yearly game-related expenses add up to quite a heap. And, many of these games will be played only once. Hence the feeling of expensive games, don’t you think?

PK: What is the boardgame scene like in Switzerland?  Is there a unified gaming ‘scene’ or does the country’s multitude of languages and cultures force players into more regional groups?

SP: There are different groups, and they never really merge, even during the Swiss Toy Fair that takes place in September in Bern.  Languages are certainly not alien to the problem.  You have to take in account that the country’s population is small (7 million) and divided in 3 main linguistically separated areas (German, French and Italian) and that games or board games aren’t very well known to the general public. So to think of a community is almost a stretch of the imagination.

But, we have organized three designers’ meetings at the Swiss Museum of Games (www.museedujeu.com) during the last two years, and they have shown that there is a creative pool spread all over the country, so the future might hold some surprises.

PK: From your perspective, how important are the large German gaming conventions at Nurnberg and Essen?  Are they any local conventions that you usually attend?  Which do you prefer?

SP: Well, it depends on your position in the business.  If you’re “just” a gamer, then Essen is a must-see, for the sheer Wonderland feeling, while Nürenberg might seem quite dull compared to it, if you get in, that is… As authors, and publishers (with GameWorks) we find it paramount to attend both.  There are many of things to see, many people to meet and discuss with, several ceremonies to attend, and so on.

So we (with my partner Malcolm Braff) go to both, as well as to the designers’ meeting in Göttingen, which is also a very good spot to meet publishers and other designers.

The International Game Festival of Cannes and the GenCon Paris are two other conventions we attend, because their ambiance is great and there is the whole French community to meet there.

PK: What is your most memorable convention experience?

SP: I guess it would be Essen 06, signing copies of Yspahan, seeing so many games of it being played and ending the Fairplay Scouting in such a good spot.

PK: You’ve mentioned game designer’s meetings a couple of times as good opportunities to bring designers together.  What do you look for most when discussing one of your prototypes with another designer?  What kind of advice would you look to give to another designer who’s game you just tried out?

SP: Well, if you’re playing your prototype with a designer, there are to two main things to observe: the fun she/he had playing your game as a player, and flaws she/he saw (which you normally should have seen as well during that game) or might have foreseen.  Foreseen, because as a designer, there often is the tendency to think what might happen if this or that occurred in this position and what if… Which might sometimes be useful hints to avoid future traps in the design of this particular game.

Now, concerning the advice I’d give another designer, it actually depends on what he wants from me.  If he just wants my general opinion, I’ll give it to him.  If he wants to know if a particular point works or not, I’ll give him my opinion again.  With Malcom, we have tested several games where we ended up brainstorming on point systems, physical design, end game or anything else with the author.  After that, everyone is free to do what he wants with our ideas, they remain suggestions after all.

PK: How do authors protect their intellectual property when attending a designer’s meeting?  Isn’t there some concern that an idea will get ‘borrowed’ by someone else?

SP: As much as I know, there is no protection whatsoever, at least not amongst seasoned authors.  A newbie might be reluctant to go to such a meeting, fearing his ideas will be scavenged, but the authors I know don’t give a damn.  Everyone I’ve met who’s been in the business since a while told me not to worry from the very start, and so do publishers in general (I’m talking about Europeans here, I haven’t had much contact with Americans or Canadians so far, so I don’t know the general state of mind on the subject in North America).

A designer ‘borrowing’ ideas from others is certain to be singled out fast, I think.  Remember, it’s a small world, especially with today’s Internet.  And a publisher with that kind of behavior would also get a bad reputation, maybe to the point that no designer would ever want to show them anything again.  And since the publishers need the designers as bad as the designers need the authors, I really think it’s in nobody’s best interest to behave improperly.

PK: Do you typically design a game from the mechanic up or from the theme up?  Which do you consider to be more important to an enjoyable finished product?

SP: So far, most of the games I designed, alone or with co-designers, have all started with the mechanic.  We had an order with GameWorks once about vineyards, so we started with the theme, but the project came to an end mid-way through the designing process and we haven’t taken the time to finish it since. We recently started designing a game about Children’s Rights, and it also started from the theme up.

What is more important, mechanic or theme?  Well, let’s say this, I’d rather play an excellent game with poor theme than the other way round. Now of course, if I could choose, I’d go for an excellent game with great matching theme, duh.

I don’t mind thin themes, what I hate is a 100% abstract game with a really, really phony theme.  Why not stay abstract, then?  Well, I know why: because we want to sell all those boxes, of course, but still.  I like it when a publisher has the “courage” to leave the game abstract.  There’s a counter-example, though: Hey, That’s my Fish!.  Now talk about a thin theme… Thin as ice, you might say .  But it’s strangely perfect.  The game, as well as the theme.  So it appears that anything is possible.

PK: Which of your earlier designs is your personal favorite?  Do you have any plans to go back and redevelop any of them for republishing?

SP: I don’t really have earlier designs that are 100% finished and that I can compare to Yspahan, which was, don’t forget, my first released game. 

My personal (by which I mean I designed it alone) game I’m most satisfied with at the moment is the former Oklahoma, which won a prize at the Boulogne-Billancourt (France) designers’ contest in 2006 (Yspahan wan a prize there in 2005).  Over the last versions, Oklahoma has become a very tense bidding game, and I must say (as humbly as I can…) that I love it.  The rules are super simple, but the depth is there. I think it’s kind of a slow-motion Ricochet Robots, in a way… See what I mean?  No?  Thought so. ;-) Anyway, it will be in Essen as a prototype.

PK: Are there any other concepts / themes that you’d like to tackle that you haven’t had the chance to yet?

SP: Yes, many.  Children’s games, cooperative games, sensory games (sight, touch, hearing), an economic game, card games…

There are also many more things to be done with dice, and that’s cool !

PK: You raise an interesting point.  Dice have often been shunned in ‘German’ game designs – what made you decide to make them an integral part of Yspahan?

SP: Well, I was trying to find a way to have a resource management game, with a random production of goods.  The way Teuber solved that problem in Catan is so obvious and smooth, I find it quite hard to imagine something different that works that well.  While toying with two, then three, then more dice, I came to the idea of the system in Yspahan.  I then developed the game around that system.  So basically, I found it trying to flee from Catan :).

I certainly don’t mind dice in games, provided they’re still offering the players a variety of choices and/or dilemmas.  Or, the game is 100% based on luck, which is fine too provided you know in advance ;-).  I even think that randomness (I’m not saying chaos) is a necessary part of a game, which, when blended with tactics, often results in a nice design.

Chess, Go, or any other luck-deprived board game for that matter, can be very fine games, too, they’re just a bit more of a fight against your opponent/s only.  I find trying to cope with fate to be a bit more thrilling.

Take a bad bounce in pool, for instance: depending on the position and the stakes, that can be veeery tough.  But, hey, no risk no fun!  I think there’s a gut-wrenching part to randomness that makes you ask for more (maybe in a masochistic way).  It also makes you aware how random our lives are; a moment you’re here, the next you’re gone.  Talking about a bad roll…

PK: How did you make contact with Ystari?

SP: Thanks to Bruno (Cathala) I was invited to Bruno’s (this time Faidutti) Ludopathic Gathering in 2005.  There I met David Pernot, who knows Cyril (Demaegd, head of Ystari) very well.  He liked the prototype of Yspahan, and told me to send it to Cyril.  That’s how it all started.  Cyril liked the game right away, but wasn’t very hot about a majority game (which is how points were scored in the first version).  So I went back to an earlier scoring system, and once I showed the newest version to Cyril, I had a go.

PK: How much time did Yspahan spend in development, both as a prototype initially and later with Ystari getting involved?  What were the major design changes along the way?

SP: All in all, Yspahan took about 3 years to be fully developed.

As I said, before I “gave” it to Ystari, Yspahan went through a major scoring system change.  After that, there were some points and building prices adjustments, and the cards also changed quite a bit (there were 18 different cards in the earlier version, and that was reduced to 9 pairs).  The extra dice weren’t colored, you couldn’t pay a camel to protect yourself in the souks, then you could again, then you couldn’t anymore… and finally you can again.  You know, that kind of fine-tuning.

PK: Yspahan was widely credited as being a lighter game that ‘hardcore’ gamers liked to play.  Was that your original intention, or did the game change in complexity during development?

SP: I didn’t have any specific intention as I designed Yspahan, the game just evolved that way.  It was a bit more complex, though, especially as a majority game, and you could sell your goods for gold, too, which, combined with the variety of cards, gave you some more to think about.  So yes, it has become lighter along the way, but that was rather a decision taken by Ystari.  They thought it could be a great bridge between gamers and families if it was a tad lighter, and they turned out to be quite right about it, given the feedback we’ve had since it was launched.

PK: What are the chances of seeing another one of your games released by Ystari in the future?

SP: 100%!

Well, that was an easy prognostication, since I have already signed my next game with them. 
It is the former Oklahoma I was referring to above, but the name isn’t decided yet.

PK: Can you provide any more information on your upcoming game, Jamaica?

SP: I’m very satisfied with the two games (Animalia and Jamaica) we have designed and published on contract as GameWorks.  Both are targeted for families and they seem to be pretty well-received so far.  Both are eye-candy, thanks to Mathieu Leyssenne’s talent.

Jamaica is a race around… Jamaica.  We’re pirates, celebrating the 30th anniversary of Henry Morgan being appointed Governor of the island. It’s basically a race, card and dice driven (only 2 of the latter, this time), but the winner is not necessarily the first one to arrive: it’s the richest at the end of the game who wins.

Being first in the race is an advantage, though, but it’s not always enough.  Your ship has 5 holds, in which you’ll store cannon powder (for fights), food (to feed your sailors in deep waters) and gold (to pay for port taxes). So you need to manage your stocks, get gold, fight bravely and speed around that island, maybe finding a couple of worthy treasure chests along the way.  Pirates’ stuff, in short.

It’s for 2 to 6 players, age 8 and up, The more players, the better the game becomes, and the merrier, because of the numerous fights.

The artwork is again Mathieu’s (www.aniii.com) who is, well, just amazing! There are a couple of pictures to be found on the Geek, as well as on my website www.pauchon.com/jamaica.html

We’re having it released on November 15th, and the first run, as for both of Animalia’s versions (Deluxe and Travel) is again 10,000 copies, so that should be plenty enough to hit the regular market. We can’t wait to be done with it and see the end result.

We’ve been working hard on the rules, testing them over and over again on fresh players, in order to make them as appealing and user-friendly to non-gamers as possible. Tough job!

PK: Animalia is now available from the Assura SA website – do you know if they plan to make Jamaica available as well?

SP: Ahhh, haven’t we heard that question before… Yes, I think we can now say they’re (finally) thinking about having the games sold on-line via Paypal or just any credit card.  We’ll let everyone know the day this happens.  Note that I’m cautious in my statement: they’re such a big firm that everything from decision to action seems to take longer than necessary… Anyway, our hopes are high!

Author’s note: At this time, Animalia and Jamaica are only available via mail-in form, the links to which can be found by navigating from the Assura homepage (www.assura.ch).  Animalia is available to all, but it appears that Jamaica is currently only being offered to Assura policy-holders.

PK: Do you have anything else currently in design?

SP: Since we’ve founded GameWorks www.gameworks.ch with Malcolm, my personal projects are kind of on stand-by, because creating on demand and publishing does take most of our time (Malcom is also a professional jazz piano player ( www.malcolmbraff.com ).

We are currently working on two other orders, one from a private Swiss company, again with Bruno (Cathala), and one for Terre des Hommes, a caritative association, this time with Dominique Ehrhard.

PK: Many thanks to Sébastien for his interesting and informative answers!

SP: Well, it’s been a pleasure and thank you for your interest!

© 2007 Patrick Korner

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Sébastien is also a wonderful host, and I’d love to someday attend his Swiss game designer’s meeting in the Vevey Games Museum, a former castle right on Lake Geneva with a gorgeous mountain backdrop. Posted by Jeff Allers on Sep 14, 2007 at 06:41 AM | #

Slo-mo Ricochet Robots? Drool! Posted by Surya Van Lierde on Sep 14, 2007 at 10:02 AM | #

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