Musings on… Sports Games (#31)

Edited By David Fair
March 20, 2006

Welcome to Musings On..., which is a moderated discussion group in which a bunch of well known, dedicated gamers discuss and debate different games and topics regarding games.  In this particular article, they discuss the Sports Games.

Morgan Dontanville:

I’m going to be blunt. I don’t like sports.

There is one exception and that is Soccer, but I’m not obsessive or anything. I usually only follow the World Cup. That said, I’ve somewhat recently been drawn to Soccer boardgames. I got in a dime’s worth of Street Soccer games (with an averaging die) when it came out and have steadily been playing it. Recently, I fell in love with Tipp-Kick.

Because of StreetSoccer, I started to slowly warm up to boardgames adapted from sports. While it certainly has a high learning curve and it runs overly long, I get a healthy enjoyment from Tennis Masters, and look forward to playing it again. It has a nice clean design and is evocative of the game without being ping pong. Now I’m curious about Golf Masters.

I’ve always been a big fan of racing games, but this is a muddled territory. Is car/bike/horse racing a sport? I have no interest in the actual events but I rather love the various emulations. In fact, there are a number of strange sports games that I’ve ended up loving or been interested in mostly because I don’t really know the sport well enough to be biased against it - Sumo! and KnockOut are great examples of this. I’d probably try a curling game.

A number of my friends have gotten into various sports games over the years. My friend Kevin Larkin takes a camping trip where he and his old friends play nothing but a season of Strat-o-matic Football. And friends of mine from Jr. High and High school used to play Statis Pro Baseball continually. I never tried the games because I knew that I didn’t enjoy watching or playing those sports in person. Now, I wonder what I had been missing.

But then, of course, I gave Slapshot a chance and look what happened…

What do you think the best sports games are for fans of the sports and what do you think the best sports games are for people that don’t care about the sport itself?

Greg Schloesser:

While I’m not obsessed with it, I do enjoy sports. Football & Basketball are my favorites, although I will occasionally watch a baseball game if it is the playoffs. Soccer, on the other hand, is plain boring to me.

Regarding games, I rarely play sports games anymore. In my teen-age years, I played them quite a bit. My favorites:

• Paydirt (formerly Sports Illustrated Football)
• Football Strategy

I am interested in trying the new Pizza Box Football, as I’ve heard positive things about it.

To my knowledge, there isn’t a good basketball game.

I also enjoy the old Sports Illustrated Baseball game. My old copy had deteriorated years ago, and nostalgia forced me to acquire a new one a few years ago via E-bay. To date, it is the most I’ve EVER paid for a game ($110.00).

Regarding race games, I enjoy quite a few of them ... and this is in spite of the fact that I am NOT a racing fan of any sort. Racing games I enjoy:

• Formula De Mini
• Daytona 500
• Royal Turf
• Turfmaster
• Circus Maximus

Larry Levy:

I love sports. I was particularly crazed about them in my teens and twenties. And I played a lot of sports games in my teens. But I don’t play any of them anymore. I have a lot more to say about this subject, including why I gave up the sports games of my youth, but first let me address some of the things Morgan brought up.

I, too, am very fond of StreetSoccer--it’s one of my favorite two-player games. This despite the fact that I have no interest in soccer as a spectator sport. Tennis Masters is a very well done action/dexterity game. But stay far, far away from Golf Masters--it just doesn’t work.

Morgan, if you’re unsure if car/bike/horse racing is a sport, you obviously don’t live in NASCAR country. None of these events interest me, but they are most certainly sports (I’ve heard it said that jockeys are the most finely conditioned athletes in sports).

Okay, I can divide sports games into four broad categories:

Experience Games

Many tabletop sports simulations fall into this category, including just about all baseball games. Yes, in a game like Strat-O-Matic, you can set the lineups and call for steals and bunts and the like. But far and away the most important things that happen are determined by the roll of the dice (or some other randomizing factor). This is great fun for fans of the sport and those who like to track statistics and such. But it is an experience game in the truest sense of the word; the enjoyment comes from seeing a game unfold and/or following the exploits of your sports heroes over the course of a simulated season. I played a lot of these games in my youth, including Strato, APBA, Sports Illustrated, and, most of all, a now defunct game called BLM (Big League Manager). But eventually, I started looking for games that held meaningful decisions and less luck, and none of these games remotely qualified. I’ll always have a soft spot in my heart for them, though.

Golf games are also primarily experience games. Sure, you choose a club and decide where you’re aiming, but shot resolution is again purely a matter of chance. If the simulations were sufficiently detailed that there were multiple ways of attacking a hole, that would be a different story, but for the most part, the decisions are fairly obvious. Making matters worse, there is absolutely no interaction between players (I know there isn’t any in the real game either, but that doesn’t make the simulations any more enjoyable).

It was because of these two restrictions that I designed my one published game, Head to Head Golf, which substitutes card management for a dice roll and allows your opponent to influence your shot. Obviously, some realism is lost, but hopefully, the more interesting game play makes up for it. Still, since my game’s fans probably number in the single digits, this is clearly a very minor exception.

Matrix Games

In these games, the players each choose a strategy and cross them on a matrix. This either gives a result or a modifier, or a group of possible results which are then resolved using a die roll. The prototypical matrix game is Football Strategy, from Avalon Hill (there was also Baseball and Basketball Strategy, less pure and less popular games). This is because there are no random factors in FS; you get the result directly from the matrix. In most other football games, the actual result is determined randomly, but anticipating your opponent’s actions is still very important. I played both Football and Baseball Strategy while growing up, along with Sports Illustrated Football (probably the best), Fotoelectric Football, and NFL Strategy (the one with the cool spring-loaded bead randomizer).

The reason my interest in these games waned was the realization that picking the strategies was pretty much a guessing game and you could do just about as well by determining them randomly. Now fans of psychological games love this (they particularly love Football Strategy), but I really don’t care for it in other games, so the veneer of a sports theme isn’t enough to convince me to play these again.

Dexterity Games

Many of these are toys, but there are some (like Tennis Masters), which qualify as games, and good ones. There was even one older title (Championship Golf) in which the players resolved their shots by using a mini golf club and trying to roll a ball as straight as possible! I have no idea how well it played, but I always considered it an interesting curiosity.

Non-simulated Games

These are normal board games that happen to have a sports theme. StreetSoccer is an example of this and I think it’s one of the few good games based on a team sport. Another one is Strand Cup, which is based on volleyball and is a lot of fun and quite innovative.

However, the vast majority of successful non-simulated games are racing games. This is probably because the elements which go into these games are much simpler and much easier to reflect in a game. There are a LOT of highly rated racing games, but few of them appeal to me. Mostly that’s because many of them have too high a luck factor for my tastes. The racing games that I really do enjoy, like Hare & Tortoise or Billabong, aren’t sports themed. Probably my favorite race game dealing with sports is John Harrington’s Breaking Away, a cycling game that has no luck, but lots of arithmetic. It’s still a very good design and a real departure from the standard racing game. My family also got a lot of enjoyment from 3M’s Win, Place and Show while I was growing up; it’s not a game I play anymore, but I still think it’s an excellent family game and one I’d be happy to play with older kids today.

So in conclusion, my love of sports has rarely translated into a love of sports-themed games. The simplest way to reflect what is happening in most sports is through luck or guesswork, and I rarely like those kinds of games.

David Fair:

When I think about Sports Games, I think of team game simulations: football, baseball, soccer, etc. Race Game seem to me to be a different category altogether. That said, I love most Race Games, and don’t care for most Sports Games.

I think the thing that turned me off of sports games, and gave me this predisposition about what constitutes a sports game, was some early exposure to the simulation-heavy games of the 70’s. I had neighbor friend whom I played games like Panzerblitz and Panzerleader with, and he tried to get me to play some of those games, but with no interest in the subject matter, no real understanding of the game being simulated, and no care for statistics, it was a tough sell. I don’t remember if it was Stasis-Pro or Strat-O-Matic he wanted to play, but I remember letting him get about halfway through the rules explanation before concocting some excuse to leave.

All that said, there are two Sports games I love: Harry’s Grand Slam Baseball and StreetSoccer. Both are two player games that play in around 15 minutes, have simple rules, and great components. I am often found opening up our game nights with one of these two, especially if we have one early arrival.

Harry’s Grand Slam Baseball is a card game that does an excellent job of simulating a baseball game, with a well-balanced mix of cards. Each player has a small hand of cards, and must play one and draw one each turn. The game play requires you to sometimes play cards that benefit your opponent more than yourself.

Greg Schloesser:

Agreed. While there is VERY little strategy involved in the game, it is fast and fun. And, amazingly, it does give the feel of a baseball game!

Ted Cheatham:

Harry’s Grand Slam is a cute filler...but that is really it.

David Fair:

The other sports game I play, StreetSoccer, is a roll-and-move game that is often over in 10 minutes. Players roll a die to determine how far they can move their players and/or the ball in this tense little game. The mechanics are simple and despite the dice, luck does not
overwhelm the strategy in this game. A great way for two players to kick off game night.

Greg Schloesser:

I wasn’t as impressed with this one the first time I played, but future plays improved my opinion. I’m still not as enamored with it as many folks, but it is a fun, fast filler.

Shannon Appelcline:

I’m not a big fan of sports, and if I play a sports game it’s in spite of the theming, not because of it.

One of my problems with sports games is that they innately try and fit a round peg into a square hole. It’s the classic problem of simulations: do you try and hold true to the core simulation that represents the original medium, or do you instead try and create something new that actually works in the new medium of board gaming?

I think some of the sports games that work best as sports games, as opposed to simulations of a different style of play, do so with original mechanics that don’t always fit great with their originating sport. Street Soccer and Formula De are two examples. Great mechanics, but you can’t think about them too hard.

Ted Cheatham:

I am not a big sports fan anymore...and if you are excluding race games, I don’t play many sports games. My question would be, how do you break down sports games? Are you talking simulations? Is Battleball a sports game? How about Peace Bowl? And, are we talking pure board games? Or does Boccerball and Subbuteo count?

Morgan Dontanville:

Ted, I don’t see why Battleball or Peace Bowl wouldn’t be sports games regardless of the fact that no real version of those games. Are they not just Football variants? I don’t see why Subbuteo wouldn’t count. I’d even count Quidditch based games sports games.

Do you not play sports games because you are no longer a sports fan? Of does it stem from somewhere else?

What made you want to try Harry’s Grand Slam Baseball versus the rest of the genre?

Does anyone think that the advent of organized Fantasy Football and the like lead to the decline of the sport game market? How does Pizza Box Football surpass this?

I’d love to hear Jason Little’s view on this as he designed the MLB SportsClix.

Mark Jackson:

I’ll chime in more later, but I do need to respond to this while I’m thinking about it. Peace Bowl, Battleball, and Blood Bowl all share thematic elements with football, but none of the games FEEL like American football. In fact, they have more in common with rugby.

But you can’t sell Americans rugby-themed games. :-)

Jason Little:

All I can add is that I love sports to death. I’ve spent a lot of time working in the sports industry, and have helped develop sports games (Online Strat-O-Matic Baseball and Football, and then SportsClix). I’ve played dozens of sports games heavily—Blood Bowl, MLB Showdown, NBA Showdown, MLB SportsClix (duh) and myriad racing games (favorite being Formula De).

The nice thing about sports games—the theme is usually very accessible, and establishes a sense of familiarity with the players. Unfortunately, that means tolerance levels for shoddy execution are lower… a game billed as a baseball game builds certain expectations, and if it fails to deliver, folks (in general) are less apt to enjoy the game, even if it offers an otherwise solid experience.

Sports games need to “show me more� than other games simply because alternatives to sports games (specifically video games) are so plentiful. It’s not competing with other boardgames nearly as much as it’s competing with other ways of getting a similarly themed experience.

Morgan Dontanville:

Perhaps, Jason, do you think that my desire to play oddball sports games comes from the fact that I have no expectations regarding them?

Larry Levy:

I don’t think the sports game market has declined at all. Strat-O and APBA are as popular as ever. Plus, you have the ultra-sophisticated and realistic games like Dynasty League Baseball which are supported by their own niche crowd. Rotisserie Baseball and Fantasy Football are very different animals from table-top games-- players are cast as General Managers, not as Head Coaches. I think both co-exist quite nicely.

Morgan Dontanville:

For me, the real attraction to gaming is the theme. When I game I get to participate in an environment that I would never in reality get a chance to do, at least not without serious difficulty, expense or jail time.

Perhaps the reason that I would be more interested in a Sumo themed game over a Basketball themed games is that I can always play basketball. Is this why no one has made a worthwhile basketball boardgame?

Larry Levy:

I think the reason no basketball game has made it is the nature of the sport. It consists of a couple of hundred possessions a game, none of which will score more than 3 points out of the 100 or so needed to win. Plus, trying to force it into a “play calling� mode doesn’t work (you can reflect things like a pressing defense, but most possessions in real life depend more on execution than the play called). Accurately showing the effect of things like screens or a pick and roll would be exceedingly difficult and I’m pretty sure no game has even attempted it. Some sports just shouldn’t be modeled at the table-top level.

By the way, if I may be permitted another small plug, there actually *is* a Sumo themed game, designed and published by a friend of mine. It’s a programmable movement game called Sumo Arena and you can check it out here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/3665.

Morgan Dontanville:

Larry, I have Sumo Arena, but it never gets played because Jim Winslow’s Sumo! is such a simple masterpiece that it keeps filling whatever desire I have to play Sumo Arena. I’ll get to it eventually though…

Morgan Dontanville:

Would the ability to be a spectator interfere with the desire to play as one could just watch the game. Are they two different sensations: to watch and to play?

How is it that the racing theme games have surpassed the stigma?

Tom Vasel:

Well, I would wager that making a game designed around a racing theme is much more simple than most of the other sports. A simplified racing game still has the illusion of a racing simulation, while sports such as basketball and hockey are rather difficult to abstract down.

Another reason sports games are hard to market is because people (and I mean Americans here specifically) associate sports with the related teams. Look at video games for example. The sports games that do the best are the ones that can actually license the names of the sports teams. Licensing fees are huge - and probably more than any current board game company (excepting Hasbro and Wizkids) can afford. And having a game without the licensing just won’t hold many people’s interests.

Thirdly, the aforementioned video games are heavy competition. There are few video games that give the negotiation in I’m the Boss, the analysis of Caylus, or just the silly fun of Looping Louie. There are great, marvelous video games about sports - games that sell into the millions each year. Why would an average person want to play a board game when they have a sports game that looks realistic on the computer. In Korea, you can even watch a sports game on TV - which is a bit too much for me. I don’t fall into this category - I would rather have a slow, strategic board game. But I’m certainly in the minority, and me and my cronies aren’t a big enough base for a company to base sales figures on.

Mark Jackson:

Oh, yeah… and there IS a good basketball game.

Bas-ket.

Seriously. Bring out a copy at your next game gathering and watch people gather around for a turn to play. Weirdly enough, I just saw a copy of this in a Target in central California today. Evidently it’s back in print.

Mike Siggins:

March Madness is good too.

Mark Jackson:

No argument there… I actually found it to be one of the more accessible AH sports titles. But I never could find anyone who wanted to play it, so I finally traded it away. (I had the same experience with one of my favorite chit-pushing wargames, Air Assault on Crete… but unless paratroop attacks are a sport I didn’t know about, I’m headed off-topic here.)

Tom Vasel:

Wow! I had forgotten about this game, which we must have played hundreds of times as a kid. I saw a copy at a store in Maylasia myself. So yes, there is one good basketball game.

Greg Schloesser:

Ahhh ... I do remember the game. Yes, I had a LOT of fun playing it in my youth, and am happy to hear it is back in print. I will seek a copy to re-kindle those memories.

Still, it isn’t what I was thinking when I said there were no good basketball games. Bas-ket is more of a dexterity game, and not a simulation of managing and leading a basketball team. Basketball is such a fast sport, that attempts to translate it into a board game from a “coach� perspective have generally produced slow, plodding and unexciting games. I played the old AH Basketball game many times, and while it had some good elements, the end result was a game that just didn’t do a very good job of capturing the fast-paced nature of a good game of roundball.

Chris Palermo:

Sports games are my passion. Believe it or not, they were my entry into the gaming hobby (I played Statis Pro as a kid, asked for it for X-mas, got Strat-O-Matic instead. Researched and learned about Avalon Hill, played THEIR games, learned about the wargames, played THOSE, migrated into strategy, and finally Euros...kind of a circuitous route).

But, sports games are my first love—I probably have...mmm...200-250 different sports simulation games. And, there’s a huge distinction between a ‘sports game’ and a ‘sports simulation game.’ To me, the difference is enormous—March Madness, while a fun game, is really just a Card Game - almost Euro in design. It’s WAY too easy to overturn/change the expected outcome.

So, while I enjoy sports-themed games....I realize they’re not the same as the Strat-O-Matics, etc. There have been some good basketball games—Jim Mickey’s “Fast Breakâ€? is largely considered to be one of the best sports games ever designed. Replay Basketball, available now, has also gotten rave reviews.

Again, though, it depends on the individual’s interest—the best of both worlds is a game that both plays/feels like the sport, and delivers accurate statistical results.

In that respect, because there are benchmarks per game in basketball, it’s easier to generate accurate stats—it’s much harder to pull off the same thing in hockey or baseball - where stats are typically only ‘recognized’ in seasonal format. Most people don’t have the luxury to replay a season, so those games rely even more upon the ‘feel’ of the game.
Speaking of luxury - someone asked earlier about fantasy leagues damaging the boardgame market. I don’t think fantasy games do nearly as much as computer games do. With a computer game, playing a full season is now very easy (setting some games to ‘auto-play). More than anything, computer games have really cut into the boardgame market....

Morgan Dontanville:

Would anyone care to take a stab at what they think are the best games for each sport?

As an amateur Sports Game player these are what I enjoy most:

Sumo wrestling: Sumo!
Horse Racing: Turf Master
Tennis: Tennis Masters
Bike Racing: Devil take the Hindmost (Breaking Away coming a very close second)
Boxing: Knock Out
Soccer: Street Soccer

What should other amateur Sports Game players look into?

Tom Vasel:

Football: Pizza Box Football
Soccer: Total Attack Soccer
Horse Racing: Win, Place & Show
Bike Racing: Um Reifenbreite
Basketball: Bask-et
Chris Palermo:
Football: Strat-O-Matic (with Statis-Pro and Varsity Gridiron close behind)
Hockey: Face-Off
Baseball: WAY too many to list that are good
Basketball: Ultimate College Basketball

Mark Jackson:

Which would I rather play, a “simulation� or a game that captures the “feel� of the particular sport? Pretty obviously, I’m an “experience� kind of guy. That explains my enjoyment of Harry’s Grand Slam Baseball & Diceball as my two favorite baseball related games. (And, yes, I own a copy of Strato-matic, but I’ve never played it.)

In the world of soccer, Street Soccer is probably the best of the games out there - fast, with a backgammonish quality that reminds me of actual soccer strategy. And I may be one of the few people on the planet who like Finale (though some people out there in Europe think enough of it to republish it this last year!)

Someone asked about best games to look for in each sport… I think, instead, I’ll list games I like best, which could well not be the best.

Football: the Paydirt/Bowl Bound system is good, if a bit dated (it’s all cross-references & die rolls)
Basketball: Bas-Ket (you’re right - it’s a dexterity game, but it feels like basketball)
Volleyball: no contest… Strand Cup is the ultimate (and possibly only) volleyball card game (best, btw, with 6 players).
Soccer: it’s a tie (no surprise, eh? it’s soccer, for crying out loud - land of ties!) between Finale (which is clunky but fun) and Street Soccer (which is streamlined but more backgammon than soccer)
Horse Racing: Royal Turf is a great gambling game, but the best horse racing game is still the aforementioned Win, Place & Show (granted, Really Nasty Horse Racing Game has it’s moments, but to make the game really worth the investment, Craig Berg - a very funny man & a great m.c. for the game - ought to be included in every box).
Bike Racing: hands down: Um Reifenbreite
Fencing: Duell… but play with the rules to the original game, En Garde
Hockey: Phantoms of the Ice is great fun, but it’s not a very good game - really, if I want to play a “hockey game�, I’d probably play rod hockey at an arcade
Auto Racing: Formula De Mini is the best easily available racing game… while I really like Das Motorsportspiel for it’s frenetic pace - but my favorite game with this theme is Daytona 500, which isn’t as good a “simulationâ€? but is a great gaming experience. Close behind it is Ausgebremst (an interesting re-theming & re-design of the popular Ave Caesar).

David Fair:

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, Mine are:
Soccer: Street Soccer
Baseball: Harrys Grand Slam Baseball
Auto Racing: Formula Motor Racing
Horse Racing (Modern): Really Nasty Horse Racing Game
Chariot Racing: Ave Caesar
Fencing: Duell
Jousting: Joust (a free print-and-play gem by Joe Huber)
Tug of War: Heave Ho!

I have never (if I recall correctly) played a football, basketball or hockey themed gamed. I do own Dream Team and PowerPlay, having acquired both of them during my trip to Essen in ’05, but have never played them.

Mark Jackson:

I’m not a particularly “sport-yâ€? person… given the choice between playing a game of football and watching a game of football, I’ll take watching every time. But, a combination of going to school at Baylor University (a school with a rich tradition of football, if not a rich tradition of winning) and living in Texas for a number of years turned me into a football fan.

That said, I’m not sure I’ve found a football board game that I truly love. My folks had Fotomatic Football, which was pretty cool as a concept but not so much fun as a game. I owned & played a good bit of Paydirt - mostly solitaire, as the folks I was gaming with at that time were primarily rpg/fantasy nuts. (Well, I was one, too, but that’s not really the topic at hand, right?!) In fact, I wrote a program (in Basic) to do the die rolls for me. Like others have mentioned, I’m curious about Pizza Box Football… it sounds like my kind of sports game.

Chris Palermo:

Mark, You may want to check out Second Season Football - which is now published by Replay Sports. Although the game DOES use real players, by all accounts, it’s a true immersion into the game - people that play it say they feel like they’re really a part of the game – which sounds exactly like what you want.

Here’s a link: http://www.replaybb.com/FBPages/FootballProducts.htm

Mark Jackson:

Two more random sports game thoughts:

1. Never really found a boxing game I particularly liked… but Rock’em Sock’em Robots is pretty cool. (Didn’t like Title Bout (AH)… and can’t count Gladiator (AH), Clash of the Gladiators (Rio Grande), or Swashbuckler (Yaquinto) as boxing/sports games. (Though all three have some serious fun packed into ‘em - it’d be nice to see some enterprising company take the RoboRally card-based programmed movement and use it to implement Swashbuckler or Gladiator.)

2. I’ve been watching WAY too much Olympic coverage this weekend… which made me wonder: why no good winter sports games? OK, I can think of one: Mush (White Wind) by Alan Moon, which is about the Iditerod (sp?) dogsled race. But beyond that… nothing.

Mike Siggins:

I think someone needs to look at the Lambourne Games back catalogue!

The skiing game is one of the best replay games around.

Mark Jackson:

I’ve actually never seen any of the Lambourne Games. Evidently I must be flogged & quartered for my impudent question. :-)

Seriously, Mike, tell us all a little more about Lambourne. I’m guessing most Americans have no clue about them.

Alfred Wallace:

They’re probably best known stateside for Wings Over France, their (great!) solo wargame of WWI air combat. They have a pretty substantial catalogue of sports replay games: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/search.php3?publisherid=1259

The only one I have is Final Score, which seemed...complicated. I keep meaning to try out the others, but haven’t gotten around to it…

See here for more: http://www.sportsgameshop.com/

I’m intrigued by the snooker simulation. Not $27.20 worth of intrigued, but intrigued nonetheless. (Note: If “spectacular bits� is a requirement for a game entering your collection, leave the above links alone. They’re definitely aiming for “functional.�)

Mike Siggins:

I don’t think Terry ever aimed for anything on graphics. Whenever we mentioned that, umm, they might be improved upon by a passing eight year old, he said he was perfectly happy with them. So that was what we got.

I wasn’t being snotty, I am just surprised that we went through all of that and hardly a Lambourne Game was mentioned. It reflects their low profile. Okay, so they are not all great, and often the “replay decision� element comes down to Go Fast/Go Faster/Be Cautious, but in other cases they are very, very clever.

Wings of France has been mentioned. Great narrative game up there with B17 and Patton’s Best.

Sport of Kings is a sublime game of horse training and racing that many prefer to WP&S. Metric Mile is just a great game, full stop. Long Distance Double is similar, but different. The World of Motor racing will let you, in some hours, do a very realistic GP, Le Mans, Rally or Nascar.

The Big Fight is a good little boxing card game. There is a Speedway card game that also works as a quick filler. Ditto Devil Take the Hindmost (this was I think re-done in Germany). International Cricket is simply the best cricket stats game on the planet.  Downhill is the skiing game.

I could go on…

Chris Palermo:

The Skiing game is pretty good. I have a handful of Lambourne Games stuff—including WOMR and Centre Court. But, like Mark, I would’ve loved to have seen something that would allow complete replays of the Olympics—luge & bobsled, ski jumping, moguls, etc. With Terry retired, I doubt we’ll ever see that.

Mike Siggins:

Oh, me too. But Terry always had distinct ideas on what would and wouldn’t work. Or indeed what he liked. No Lambourne Basketball game, remember?

How would you simulate judged events?

Mark Jackson:

Some events would be easier than others - let’s take ski jumping as an example. You have three major components, right? Distance (how far?), style (form?), and landing (do you stick it, bobble, or wipe out?) Using a card-based system, you could assign points to each of those areas, then influenced by die rolls or some other card system to see how well you succeeded.

The more difficult events would be things like figure skating & alpine skiing - though I think that a card-based system might work for both of these as well, using a diminishing hand size to mimic the effects of exhaustion.

Morgan Dontanville:

It would be fun to play a judged dexterity game.

Especially, if everyone represented a country initially. So, you can make biases based on that alone.

Devil take the Hindmost is certainly one of the best bike racing games I’d played, I only associated the game with Fiendish Games, but now I’ll have to look into other Lambourne Games.

Mike Siggins:

I have to catch a train, but quickly…

The easy answer in sports games is always a table. You can do anything with a table. Once a skier has a rating applied, it is the easiest job in the world to come up with a table vs die roll that makes sense.

The question I leave you with is, “Is there any merit in devising cleverer systems for something that is really that simple?� The skier has trained, we know he is worse than 15 others but better than 120 also-rans, but a replay game only has to make him come in 16th, or 14th, or 30th, or 8th and the job is done.

Do we want a game about skiing? What are the factors we need to consider? What is going through the skier’s head and how do they relate to his ability?

Bye! More tomorrow,

Nick Danger:

I think the factors involved would closely simulate those involved in grand prix race games with some tweaking. Mainly, needing to plan ahead so while you’re in one turn you’re already thinking about what needs to be done to hit the next turn.

I visualize a downhill course with various paths through the turns. Staying on line through a turn improves your speed, but with more speed comes a loss of control. The race would be a constant battle between speed and control.

The rub of course is how to give the players the ability to control their skier that has any fun or challenge to it. Some sort of card drafting mechanism seem a possible option and I like Mark’s idea of building in something to even further add chaos as the finish line approaches to work in the exhaustion factor.

Just some thoughts as I don’t have a train to catch but do have a ringing phone to answer right now…

Chris Palermo:

Well, nothing is ever that simple. The Olympics (and, all of sports) have shown us that!

There is a difference though, between a generic, results-driven game (rating vs. table = score) and a game that tries to draw the player into the experience. The former is great if you’re doing qualifying (i.e., no way I’m ‘playing’ the game for 200 ski-jumpers), but it doesn’t really give you a lot of built-in drama.

On the other hand, a full ‘race’ offers chances for pitfalls and desperation. Maybe the skier takes a turn a little wider than he should have. Maybe he has to cut another turn a little closer than he normally would—to make up speed. Maybe he falls? Maybe he stumbles, but stays upright and finishes the race. Yeah, I’d love to see a game like that (and, although I haven’t played it in a while, I think Terry’s fits the bill).

But, you could have the same system for speed skating, cross country skiing, moguls & freestyle, snowboarding, ski-jumping, etc. Yes, the mechanics would change, slightly—but it would work. Heck, even figure skating—where the judging is so exact now…

But, you could have tables, and compare the results of each ‘leg’ or ‘trick’ or ‘move’ and see how successful it was—if there was a judging component involved, perhaps a variation of the Title Bout system would work—where at the bottom of a card (or, to be more consistent, on a table) there’d be a place for varied judges’ responses, that would not be truly random; but, instead, would augment and clarify the existing result.
I’d buy a game like that! Then again, I’m a sucker for any sport game, period! I’d also love to see games on the NBA and NFL (and college players) that addresses the “Skills Challenges� that have become more prevalent. And, I’m still holding out for a simulation of “Battle of the Network Stars� that includes realistic stats for realistic results! :)

Larry Levy:

As long as we’re talking about sports games we’d like to see, I always wanted to find a golf game that truly reflected the strategy of the sport. There’s a tremendous amount of course management that players need to do in order to be successful: when do you take a full drive or play it safe with a 3 Wood; which side of the fairway do you play to in order to have a better angle to the green or to avoid some particularly dangerous hazard; on which greens do you aim for the pin or play to the middle of the green; etc. I’d love to see any kind of game (boardgame, video game, or computer game) that realistically takes these into account. Then there’s also the different kinds of shots a skilled golfer needs to make: draws and fades, heavy or light spins, high soft shots or low shots that bore into the wind. Not to mention all the flop shots and chips golfers need to master around the green. Imagine using different combinations of buttons on a controller to allow players to make these shots, with varying amounts of success. Even more important would be portraying the game so that these shots become worthwhile to attempt. (I know that most computer golf games allow you to adjust the way you address the ball, but it also seems that you can score very well by ignoring this aspect.)

The way golf is simulated falls far short of the way it is actually played by experts, so I think there’s a gap here that can be profitably exploited. This is particularly true since a round of golf only involves 70 or so shots, as compared to about 300 pitches in a baseball game or 120 or so complex plays in a football game. You could add the necessary elements to a golf simulation and not have it take forever to play.

Ted Cheatham:

There was a golf game with dice....I want to say Golfprofi. It was interesting in that you got different dice based on your handicap. And the better dice, help you score better, etc. It was pretty good. I remember shooting over 100 and then started to get my handicap down. 18 holes with a couple of players took about an hour, maybe faster. Ultimately traded the game as someone liked it more than me and I had played it enough. Matter of fact, we did a planned event at the Gathering several years ago.

Larry Levy:

Yup, and I was in that game. It was another Teddy “Let’s Try This Out� Gathering special, which is why Mik usually runs screaming when he sees you coming. :-) Actually, the concept behind the game is interesting and it’s “experience� system is unique, but I still thought it was basically a dicefest and not terribly accurate (holing out seemed way too easy).

Mark Jackson:

I’ve heard that some “clown� designed a game called Head 2 Head Golf.

You’re saying that one isn’t any good?!

Larry Levy:

Nah, I’m saying golf games are so crappy that even *I* could design something that improves the state of the art! (Or, at least, some preacher man once led me to believe!)

Chuckles

Ted Cheatham:

Now Golf Mania by Fantasy Flight....Bring out the big mama.

Mark Jackson:

For those playing along at home, Larry designed Head To Head Golf, which is not the world’s greatest simulation but is actually an enjoyable golf-based card game.

Musings On… is a roundhouse forum discussion on games and topics related to gaming. if you are interested in participating in future discussions, please email David Fair at dafair followed by the at sign and gmail.com.

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